Thinking of starting a new landscaping company I am thinking about starting up a landscaping company, and would like some feedback from you guys. I would still keep my current job, and would be working this business in the afternoons and on weekends. I would eventually like to see this become a full-time gig, but that would not HAVE to happen. Anyway, I have two scenarios I am thinking about:
1) BX25 with tooth bar, ripper tooth, box blade, york rake, PTO chipper, possibly a tiller, and a trailer to haul it around with. I would use my existing truck, and would only have limited ability to remove material from the site. A few stumps, and some chipped material, but not much in the way of dirt. Jobs would be mowing (possibly), material handling, and small to medium sized earth moving, (for patios, fish ponds, stone or retaining walls, stump removal, driveway repair, small trenches for new water mains or to bury electrical lines from pole to house). One advantage to going with this size equipment is that I could get to places larger machines can’t get to without ruining existing lawns, gardens, etc. Another advantage is that I have one machine to do everything. I could show up to sites with most of these attachments at the same time, and switch from digging, to hauling, to mowing in relatively short order. Cost would be under $35K, and the loan would be low enough that if everything failed miserably, I could still make the loan payments on my own.
2) B2620 TLB, along with several attachments like tooth bar, ripper tooth, box blade, york rake, PTO chipper, post hole digger, possibly a tiller, possibly a KD221 for mowing duty, and a new truck and trailer to haul these around with. The truck may be a mason truck, or just a 250/350 (with or without a dump bed). I need to determine the level of demand for material removal before I decide on this. Jobs would be the same as above, except that I could now add bigger earth moving jobs to the list. Small jobs may have to be passed over, depending on the location. Cost would be around $90K, and if things went badly I would have to walk away from the whole thing. The prospect of that makes this an unattractive option to me.
One reason that I am trying to tap into the small job market is because there simply aren’t people around here to do that kind of work. Everyone is either a full-blown landscaping company with any and all machines they’ll ever need, or they are a small outfit that relies mostly on manual labor. And there seems to be reasonable demand for stuff in the $500-$1000 range, for what amounts to a day or less of work. I think there’s potential for this market sub-set to grow because people can’t get home equity/home improvement loans easily, which leads to people doing projects themselves. Coming in at or under that psychological barrier of $1000 seems like a good way to make my services attractive.
But the main reason I am trying to tap this small market is so that I can get some experience doing these kinds of tasks. I have all of about 30 minutes using a BX24, so I need to improve that quickly. I have several jobs on my own property that will give me experience trenching, digging up stumps, clearing brush, and leveling land. But my land is easy access, and fairly flat. It’s a good place to start, but I’ll need more varied conditions to get competent at this kind of work. And eventually I’d like to also be available as a subcontractor to other, more established contractors. I wouldn’t want some contractor to hire me, only to find that it takes me twice as long to dig a hole as the next guy because I’m green. I should mention that mowing is not something I want to do as a primary task. But I would like to have it as an option so that I have something going on in between the other jobs.
I have only just started doing market research, so plans are likely to change as I gather more information. The ideas I’ve laid out above are where I’m starting from, and are really only based on my gut, conditions I see locally, and on many conversations with two friends that own landscaping companies (one big, one small).
At this point I am looking for feedback from any of you guys. Do I take the safe BX route, knowing I stand a pretty good chance of having to float the company on my own dime at some point (which I could do)? Or do I go for the big machine and equipment along with the big financing, knowing that if it fails, I’m out? What am I not thinking about? What pitfalls await me that may not be obvious to someone just starting out? Are there job types that I'm overlooking?
I'd personally start w/ the BX25 and see where it goes, you can always upgrade later if it takes off. Also in this economy going with the sure thing seems the most logical (then you have a new bx25 if all else fails!)
Still looking, trying to figure out what to get
These are great questions and I will try and point out a few things that may helpOriginally Posted by CCinCT
besides insurance and a possible license (depending on state) some of the other things to think over are:
1. Good wholesale supplier of dirt, gravel, plants, trees, brick etc.....
2. you need to be competitive and understand your needs in profit (margins) and how to cost or price out a job
3. where to haul debris back to - stumps, dirt, debris, etc.....some wholesale have dump landfills to bring stuff back to them
4. understand the capabilities of your truck or future truck....the more capable it is the more you can do and save money by going to yard and getting soil rather then them delivering (expensive)....4x4 suggested
5. know the competitive market in your area and what the prices are that they charge and try and differentiate
6. services you gonna offer - do they match with equipment you have? mowing? what mowers will you be using? are they fast mowers?
I will come up with more later
Good site with lots of info -but collectively Im pretty sure we can answer the questions here......just my opinion
'08 Kubota L 39, 2006 JD 2520 TLB, 2003 Cub Cadet 3204, 2006 Ford F-550 turbo diesel 4x4 mason dump, Wright Standers 52" mower, and a ton of attachments!
For now, these are what they are, and really aren't a variable in this. They are probably one of the last things I will be looking at in depth simply because they cost what they cost, and their ain't much I can do about it
1) I know of several good wholesalers of dirt, gravel, and various bricks and stone. I won't be getting into grass and vegetation because of the high manual labor involved. May get there eventually, but for now I will be a one-man-show.
2) Agree, and will get to the pricing once I've figured out all of my fixed costs (including insurance). Honestly, I have no need to make a dime for the first year. I would much prefer to gain experience and a good reputation first. Of course, the obvious downside is that if I do a good job doing X and Y price, then a year later I'm doing the same task for 25% more (because I need to make money at that point), then people might get mad that my prices have gone up so much. So yes, I need to figure out a balance between being low enough that people will take a chance with the new kid on the block, but high enough that I'm not locking myself into a price point that isn't sustainable.
3) We have a town landfill/transfer station that takes just about anything. My plan was to charge a client for whatever the dumping fee is, plus some amount for my time and effort.
4) My current truck is a 2007 F150 with 6-1/2' bed. So I can tow the BX and attachments all day, but this is why material removal is limited. Stumps are fairly easy, assuming I can lift them up into the truck with the tractor. But dirt and gravel are much tougher because I'm limited to about 1600 pounds in the bed.
5) Currently, the only direct competitor in my area that I have found is a guy on Craig's list who I swear must have been reading my mind for the past two week. However, he is a lone guy, and doesn't indicate whether he's insured and such. I plan on presenting myself as a proper company, fully licensed, insured, a member of the local chamber of commerce, and with a proper web site (my BIL is a web site developer). My intent is for people to see me and/or my advertising, and see that they can get all the comfort of a real company, for the price of someone doing this is a side hobby. There are plenty of other landscaping companies in the area, but they are all either much larger (geared towards commercial property maintenance), or smaller and focused on lawn/vegetation care.
6) The services I mentioned originally are all within the limits of a BX25. Many of these tasks will take longer than a larger machine. It is a trade off, I know. But I believe it is a good one to make in the beginning. As for mowing, again another advantage of going the BX route is that I can mow with it. Won't be nearly as quick as a zero-turn, but it also means only $1800 more. Plus, I could mow my own lawn with it, making it even less of an investment.
Very interesting sites. Lots of info there that I like, especially the more generic stuff about operating a business. Still going through them though.
This is exactly what I've been thinking.
Well...I know you can...but I was NOT sure of your availability...with Spring around the corner...These are great questions and I will try and point out a few things that may help
besides insurance and a possible license (depending on state) some of the other things to think over are:
1. Good wholesale supplier of dirt, gravel, plants, trees, brick etc.....
2. you need to be competitive and understand your needs in profit (margins) and how to cost or price out a job
3. where to haul debris back to - stumps, dirt, debris, etc.....some wholesale have dump landfills to bring stuff back to them
4. understand the capabilities of your truck or future truck....the more capable it is the more you can do and save money by going to yard and getting soil rather then them delivering (expensive)....4x4 suggested
5. know the competitive market in your area and what the prices are that they charge and try and differentiate
6. services you gonna offer - do they match with equipment you have? mowing? what mowers will you be using? are they fast mowers?
I will come up with more later
Good site with lots of info -but collectively Im pretty sure we can answer the questions here......just my opinion
I'm always available even when i'm not LOL I'm doing my annual debauchery tour in Vegas at the end of the month.....its work related, but its more a bachlor party 24/7....LOLWell...I know you can...but I was NOT sure of your availability...with Spring around the corner...
spring projects are ramping up fast as well
'08 Kubota L 39, 2006 JD 2520 TLB, 2003 Cub Cadet 3204, 2006 Ford F-550 turbo diesel 4x4 mason dump, Wright Standers 52" mower, and a ton of attachments!
No need to loose money at all - your time is valuable, and should never be thrown away or cheapened.....just price it right from the start and over time you will build a following...For now, these are what they are, and really aren't a variable in this. They are probably one of the last things I will be looking at in depth simply because they cost what they cost, and their ain't much I can do about it
1) I know of several good wholesalers of dirt, gravel, and various bricks and stone. I won't be getting into grass and vegetation because of the high manual labor involved. May get there eventually, but for now I will be a one-man-show.
2) Agree, and will get to the pricing once I've figured out all of my fixed costs (including insurance). Honestly, I have no need to make a dime for the first year. I would much prefer to gain experience and a good reputation first. Of course, the obvious downside is that if I do a good job doing X and Y price, then a year later I'm doing the same task for 25% more (because I need to make money at that point), then people might get mad that my prices have gone up so much. So yes, I need to figure out a balance between being low enough that people will take a chance with the new kid on the block, but high enough that I'm not locking myself into a price point that isn't sustainable.
3) We have a town landfill/transfer station that takes just about anything. My plan was to charge a client for whatever the dumping fee is, plus some amount for my time and effort.
4) My current truck is a 2007 F150 with 6-1/2' bed. So I can tow the BX and attachments all day, but this is why material removal is limited. Stumps are fairly easy, assuming I can lift them up into the truck with the tractor. But dirt and gravel are much tougher because I'm limited to about 1600 pounds in the bed.
5) Currently, the only direct competitor in my area that I have found is a guy on Craig's list who I swear must have been reading my mind for the past two week. However, he is a lone guy, and doesn't indicate whether he's insured and such. I plan on presenting myself as a proper company, fully licensed, insured, a member of the local chamber of commerce, and with a proper web site (my BIL is a web site developer). My intent is for people to see me and/or my advertising, and see that they can get all the comfort of a real company, for the price of someone doing this is a side hobby. There are plenty of other landscaping companies in the area, but they are all either much larger (geared towards commercial property maintenance), or smaller and focused on lawn/vegetation care.
6) The services I mentioned originally are all within the limits of a BX25. Many of these tasks will take longer than a larger machine. It is a trade off, I know. But I believe it is a good one to make in the beginning. As for mowing, again another advantage of going the BX route is that I can mow with it. Won't be nearly as quick as a zero-turn, but it also means only $1800 more. Plus, I could mow my own lawn with it, making it even less of an investment.
Very interesting sites. Lots of info there that I like, especially the more generic stuff about operating a business. Still going through them though.
This is exactly what I've been thinking.
1. Rental centers - get the list of what they rent and have it to factor in to your quotes.....some places rent F550 sized 3/4 yard mason trucks for those bigger hauling days.....if your doing grading, see what the rental is per day for a tractor and harley rake is.....
2. as per stumps and their removal.....they suck and beat the hell out of your machine....most weigh over 500 lbs (if its a significant tree root ball)....that would exceed your tractor......stump grinding rental and grading with topsoil is a good match for your machine
3. Craigslist is the best advertisement out there....figure out how to advertise in you area on that site.....free press with great return.....I think the rest doesn't pay off so save your money...a good website that lists on search engines is good
'08 Kubota L 39, 2006 JD 2520 TLB, 2003 Cub Cadet 3204, 2006 Ford F-550 turbo diesel 4x4 mason dump, Wright Standers 52" mower, and a ton of attachments!
Well a lot has been stated already and everyone is right on, ccinct just over 2 years ago I thought the same thing you are thinking now.
I will tell you what I have learned there is a reason the other companies have the equipment they have and charge what they do. I have a b2920 it does more then I could have asked but it is still very limited in work that is going to make you money. I just do things on a small scale and did not get insurance it is a huge risk, do you know the fines$$$$ if you dig up utilities. Have you looked into the cost of starting and running a legal business. I did you cant make enough money part time to pay for it or make it cost effective. Some other things I have learned CL gets you very cheep people they do NOT want to pay you much I tried that whole thing was not worth my time to go estimate the job. The website and cl is great some of my buddy's and myself have found the best advertisement is doing a good job some of us haven't posted adds for years. If you are looking to dig stumps take it from someone who didn't listen to other people from MU, They are hard to dig up they are hard on the equipment and for me they are hard and costly to get rid of.
I have been running a part time weekly lawn service company for over ten years, I also wanted to get into what you are thinking I have found it to be very hard. If you price yourself to make money that you can live on and pay the business expenses you will cost the same as other company's. but with a bx it will take you so much longer, your time wont be worth it. Something else I have struggled with is moving material. I have a pickup with a dump trailer. I use the same trailer to move my Kubota. So when I need to bring material to a job I have to make 2 trips or have it delivered and that’s eating profit. If I am removing material I have to take 2 trips and by me the town dump doesn't take commercial trucks so you need to pay big bucks to dump it. So far out of the jobs I have done most have needed material moved in some way. A dump truck is the way to go. Other lessons learned. tractors moving around grass with attachments on will rip up lawns trust me invest in a stack of 3/4" plywood that’s more to haul to the job and if you are digging and your outriggers and front bucket are on concrete or asphalt you need the wood to. Then that moves when you are digging and you cant rip them boulders or stumps out. One attachment DUC talk about is a harly rake that would be the best money maker you could get if you did any thing but they are pricey. You also mentioned you don’t have much seat time that could become very costly for you if you mess things up.
I could keep going on and on but I don’t want to scare you. What I have found is buy the machine that YOU need. do what you need to do and if you have "friends" (they all come out of the woodwork) that want HELP tell them to pay for the fuel and lunch. In the long run I have found I am more relaxed and stress free just doing things that way. Hope that helps.
atvman, thanks for the input. And no, you're not scaring me
I've received a couple quotes for $1m liability and $25K equipment coverage and they are both about $60/month. I don't need workman's comp because I am the only employee, and I don't need disability because I have that through my current job. And yes, it will cover me regardless of how I disable myself, including working for another company. What I haven't got a clear picture of yet is coverage for my truck (personally owned) when being used for commercial tasks. Still trying to find someone that can clear this up for me.
The CL and website route for marketing is really just so that the people I know can point their friends to a place to get more information about what I can and will do. I believe this will eventually become a mostly word-of-mouth type business, and don't expect to put any real money into advertising. BTW, my BIL is a web designer, so he would set me up for next to nothing: just the cost of domain registration and hosting.
As for customers, I agree that CL will mostly be a dead end. I would expect about 90% to choke on the quote, or never call back. But I'm hoping by comparing what I can do with what it would cost for them to rent equipment themselves, there will be a clear value to having me do the work for them. One thing I have noted is how many people advertise services on CL, but make no mention of licensing or insurance. I, as a homeowner, would never think of letting someone come on my property that wasn't properly L&I, and I wonder what sort of people would hire that kind of service...
Continuing on... Your points about material handling are probably the most concerning to me. I've been really debating how to approach it. If I purchase that sort of equipment, I'm more than doubling my initial investment and putting myself well beyond my ability to cover costs on my own. But if I don't have that ability at some level, then I am really gimping my services. Am looking into rentals of mason dump trucks, but haven't got any quotes yet. As for where to dump the material, we have that capacity at my towns transfer station, so I'm not worried about it. Like I mentioned earlier, that cost would be passed on to the customer so that he understands how much material removal is really costing him. Considering most people around here are on 3/4 acre or more, I would hope they'd start to look at possibly piling the material up and letting it decompose for future use in a garden or something. I've done this 3 times over the past 6 years and it's worked great for me. Have ended up with about 3 yards of rich soil as a result.
One if the reasons I'm trying to stick with the BX is because I can pass over most lawns without damaging them. I like the idea of 3/4" plywood as needed, and will definitely keep that in mind. I would hope I could plan for all that when I'm at the site getting info to generate a quote.
And the harley rake is something I would plan for a year or two down the road, once I'm sure things are going somewhere.
And lastly, I've taken a few looks at the B2620/B2920, and although it is a sweet machine, I still prefer the BX. I really like all the attachments available for the BX, like ripper tooth, grapple for the bucket, etc. All those things make the machine much more capable than people would think, even though it'll still take longer to do those larger jobs. And, because the BX25 TLB is about 1300 pounds lighter than the B2X20 TLB, it is much easier to haul around with my current truck.
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