An Old Issue Revisited... - Page 3 - Machine Underground -Tractor & Commercial Equipment Discussion Forum

Dougster · 07-20-2008, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Well if you are unable to handle a whole chain.

Figure out what lengths are needed and make up chains for a purpose. You could even go so far as securing one end of chain with a clevis to trailer and just leave it there. Then you would only have a short piece of chain with one end to fool with.

Good points Dog. Yes, I did go too far overboard when I bought the chains and binders to tiedown the Mahindra... and yes, I pay a huge physical price for it everytime I do a one day job. This is no occupation for handicapped old men who work alone. I can dig all day long and never even get winded... but loading, transporting and unloading one or both big machines in one day just knocks holy hell out of me.

Dougster™

Dougster · 07-20-2008, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulChristenson

Vehicles, equipment and machinery which is lighter than 4,536 kg (10,000 lb.) may also be secured in accordance with the provisions of this section, with § 393.128...

Excellent reminder Paul.

Must admit that I had completely forgotten about this "mother of all loopholes" for under 10 Klb machines.

I will confess, however, that the actual wording of the sub-section itself (posted below) seems contradictory to other aspects of Part 393 and has never given me a lot of faith or confidence that the proverbial cop with a bad attitude would immediately recognize my equipment as falling under the § 393.128 criteria... and pointing that out to said cop with a bad attitude might just result in said law enforcement officer managing to find several other obscure or manufactured violations with which to charge me.

Dougster™

§ 393.128 What are the rules for securing automobiles, light trucks and vans?

(a) Applicability. The rules in this section apply to the transportation of automobiles, light trucks, and vans which individually weigh 4,536 kg. (10,000 lb) or less. Vehicles which individually are heavier than 4,536 kg (10,000 lb) must be secured in accordance with the provisions of § 393.130 of this part.

(b) Securement of automobiles, light trucks, and vans.

(b)(1) Automobiles, light trucks, and vans must be restrained at both the front and rear to prevent lateral, forward, rearward, and vertical movement using a minimum of two tiedowns.

(b)(2) Tiedowns that are designed to be affixed to the structure of the automobile, light truck, or van must use the mounting points on those vehicles that have been specifically designed for that purpose.

(b)(3) Tiedowns that are designed to fit over or around the wheels of an automobile, light truck, or van must provide restraint in the lateral, longitudinal and vertical directions.

(b)(4) Edge protectors are not required for synthetic webbing at points where the webbing comes in contact with the tires.

**LoneCowboy** · 07-20-2008, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougster

Good points Dog. Yes, I did go too far overboard when I bought the chains and binders to tiedown the Mahindra... and yes, I pay a huge physical price for it everytime I do a one day job. This is no occupation for handicapped old men who work alone. I can dig all day long and never even get winded... but loading, transporting and unloading one or both big machines in one day just knocks holy hell out of me.

Dougster™

You're doing something wrong.
I can load and/or unload in less than 5 minutes. So can my wife.
Hell, we can unload the 75hp tractor, turn around, unload the batwing off the other trailer with the tractor and then hook them up in about 10 minutes.
Grade 100 chain is SIGNIFICANTLY lighter for the same weight carrying ability. Worth every penny IMO. Try truckntow.com. I thought they were really reasonable.

Dougster · 07-20-2008, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneCowboy

You're doing something wrong.
I can load and/or unload in less than 5 minutes. So can my wife.
Hell, we can unload the 75hp tractor, turn around, unload the batwing off the other trailer with the tractor and then hook them up in about 10 minutes.
Grade 100 chain is SIGNIFICANTLY lighter for the same weight carrying ability. Worth every penny IMO. Try truckntow.com. I thought they were really reasonable.

I'd say you have that down to an exact science Lone. I can't even attach the damn equipment trailer to the truck and get it out into the street for loading in that period of time.

One problem that I've got is that since I upgraded the tires on the two trailers (to higher rated, larger diameter tires) is that the trailer ramps are now too steep to load the TLB (the backhoe bottoms out) without putting down wood planks first. Wood planks are also necessary to protect the new street paving which the town would LOVE to come after me for if I tear it up. This alone is another 5 or so minutes all by itself.

But the biggest time/fatigue/pain factor is still the dragging out the 4 binders and 4 chains that I use for tiedown and then doing a secure, legal tiedown. I currently use four 12.5 foot 3/8" Grade 70 chains and similarly rated lever binders. I secure the tractor through the FEL frame and through the backhoe frame... two chains and two binders to four tiedown points... plus one chain over the FEL bucket/grapple and one chain goes through the backhoe bucket linkage (as required here by state cops)... two more binders and four more tiedown points.

There are other extra steps I take like blocking all tires and bungee cord securing all lever binders. I go overboard for sure.

Yes, with my one good arm it takes me way too long.

Try doing it with just one arm sometime and you'll start to see what I mean. It's been obvious for a while that this "procedure" has got to change. I've just been hesitant to risk the wrath of the local constabulary.

Dougster™

**Ducati996** · 07-20-2008, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougster

Clearly, the "4 short length chains (Gr 70) and 4 binders" (2 in front and 2 in back) should be one legally acceptable alternative assuming you use at least 5/16" chain (for my ~8,000 lb load) and equal (or greater) rated load binders. And yes, I do intend to add more and/or stronger tiedown points. Being able to weld now ROCKS!!!

It should be perfectly ok

But now let's bring in the issue of quickest/easiest loading/unloading time and least amount and weight of hardware. Or put another way, put yourself in the position of a hideous old one-armed man (with high blood pressure too) trying to move two 7-8 Klb pieces of equipment out to a jobsite in the morning and return it home at night. How could/would you simply or streamline (if at all) and still comply with the rules?

If its that bad you will need a helper - no other way

Here you bring up one of the key and oft debated issues... and I probably should have asked Tim's practice in this regard as well:

Question: Is one long length chain looped around the tractor (or any other load) in the back or in the front ... secured using one binder and two trailer tiedown points... considered a single chain ??? or a double chain ??? for purposes of the above tables and complying with DOT rules & regulations?

the first chain end goes from the trailer tie down throught the frame of the front (not FEL if its is removable or quick attach) to the other trailer fram tie down. Same process on the rear of the machine

each chain needs a binder

My answers are in dark red, if you need someone to check over go to your nearest trailer or construction machine equipment dealer. They can inspect to make sure if you meet code

Dougster · 07-21-2008, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducati996

The first chain end goes from the trailer tie down through the frame of the front (not FEL if its is removable or quick attach) to the other trailer frame tie down. Same process on the rear of the machine. Each chain needs a binder.

That's pretty much what I do now with the Mahindra (excluding separate bucket and backhoe tiedown requirements) But you still didn't answer my key question.

Is the one long-length "two tiedown, one binder" chain on each end of your tractor considered a single chain or two chains for purposes of the above tables and complying with DOT rules & regulations?

I know that Paul has pointed out that optional use of § 393.128 should provide us with a sort of "get out of jail free" card for any machine under 10,000 lbs... but pretend for the moment that your machine is 10,001 pounds.

You raise another interesting point in regard to attaching or looping tiedown chains to/through "removable" parts (such as an FEL or Backhoe sub-frame or drawbar, etc.). I've been told by the state cops that this is not illegal... although I'll agree it could be imprudent or even foolish depending on the design of your particular machine. Sounds like you have been told otherwise... yes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducati996

My answers are in dark red, if you need someone to check over go to your nearest trailer or construction machine equipment dealer. They can inspect to make sure if you meet code

Unfortunately, the truck & trailer idiots in my area know next to nothing. My guess is that they did not graduate either from MIT (in engineering) or Harvard (in law). I have caught them in blatant technical and legal mistakes so many times that I've lost all confidence. And too bad for me but the Massachusetts state police enforcement unit is usually even worse. The only really useful help I've ever gotten from a state official was from the New Hampshire state police. Go figure!

Dougster™

Dougster · 07-21-2008, 10:58 PM

Interesting twist came up today in regard to the § 393.128 "get out of jail free" relaxed alternative criteria for trailering machines weighing less than 10 Klb.

While researching Lone's suggestion regarding use of Grade 100 (or even Grade 120) chain in lieu of Grade 70 for lighter weight, the issue of § 393.128 applicability came up and I was told by someone in the tractor & construction equipment business who should know that the option for using § 393.128 goes away as soon as you add attachments or implements to the base vehicle.

Now I have no good way of ascertaining if this is true or not. The Massachusetts state police enforcement unit never mentioned this to me in my many conversations with them. On the other hand, it would tend to explain the seeming contradiction between their instructions to me regarding mandatory FEL bucket and backhoe tiedowns (which are not mentioned at all in § 393.128) and other stricter measures vs. the relaxed criteria.

Anybody ever hear this before from their own state police or any other semi-half-respectable source?

Dougster™

Edster · 07-22-2008, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougster

Clearly, the "4 short length chains (Gr 70) and 4 binders" (2 in front and 2 in back) should be one legally acceptable alternative assuming you use at least 5/16" chain (for my ~8,000 lb load) and equal (or greater) rated load binders. And yes, I do intend to add more and/or stronger tiedown points. Being able to weld now ROCKS!!!

But now let's bring in the issue of quickest/easiest loading/unloading time and least amount and weight of hardware. Or put another way, put yourself in the position of a hideous old one-armed man (with high blood pressure too) trying to move two 7-8 Klb pieces of equipment out to a jobsite in the morning and return it home at night. How could/would you simply or streamline (if at all) and still comply with the rules?

Here you bring up one of the key and oft debated issues... and I probably should have asked Tim's practice in this regard as well:

Question: Is one long length chain looped around the tractor (or any other load) in the back or in the front ... secured using one binder and two trailer tiedown points... considered a single chain ??? or a double chain ??? for purposes of the above tables and complying with DOT rules & regulations?

I certainly have my own "mechanical engineer's" opinion (hint: the b***h of it is in the details) that doesn't count worth a hoot, but I'd like to hear what others here think a cop with a bad attitude might say!

Dougster™

Answer: It equals ONE chain. Looping it does not double the chain in the DOT's mind. Weight/capacity of chain=number of chains required.

Dougster · 07-22-2008, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

Answer: It equals ONE chain. Looping it does not double the chain in the DOT's mind. Weight/capacity of chain=number of chains required.

Bingo!

Give that man a cigar!

That does seem to be the consensus answer from all the "official" and industry folks I've asked and I think that's gonna have to be good enough for me. The reasons and explanations given were sometimes flawed and inconsistent... but then again, so are the cops enforcing it... but the answer was always the same: one chain!

And now for the extra points question: Instead of a chain, what if you were dealing with a steel cable attached to the trailer in two places and attached to the tractor via a pulley?

Dougster™

Edster · 07-22-2008, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougster

Bingo!

Give that man a cigar!

That does seem to be the consensus answer from all the "official" and industry folks I've asked and I think that's gonna have to be good enough for me. The reasons and explanations given were sometimes flawed and inconsistent... but then again, so are the cops enforcing it... but the answer was always the same: one chain!

And now for the extra points question: Instead of a chain, what if you were dealing with a steel cable attached to the trailer in two places and attached to the tractor via a pulley?

Dougster™

First thought is what is the pully rated for, BUT upon further thought the pully would allow for movement so it is a NO GO.